Famous Georgian doctors. Rhinoplasty in Tbilisi: Moscow surgeons and Georgian prices. - You are in demand

Otar Marshava has performed more than five hundred surgical operations in Abkhazia, where he provides services to patients free of charge. During this noble mission, he often had to swim across the Inguri, even in the frosty winter...

Batono Otar, where did you live before becoming a refugee?

My family lived in the Gali district, but I studied in Moscow. Before the war began in Abkhazia, I defended my candidate and doctoral dissertations in medicine. In 1992, I returned to Gali, and then the war in Abkhazia began, which was followed by the displacement of Georgians from the territory of Abkhazia. After I arrived in Tbilisi, I was elected as a professor at Tbilisi State University. And six years ago I was offered to head the surgical department of Western Georgia, and since then I have been in Kutaisi.

Who do you currently have in Gali?

My mother is 87 years old in Gali.

She lives alone?

Yes, she lives alone and waits for me every Friday.

Do you go to Gali every Friday?

Yes, I go every Friday, visit my mother for a while, and then start seeing patients at the hospital, sometimes in Gali, sometimes in Ochamchira, sometimes in Tkvarcheli, depending on where the patients are waiting for me.

Are your patients only Georgians, or are there Abkhazians and representatives of other nationalities?

Patients have no nationality.

I understand, but still...

Among the patients, of course, there are Georgians, Abkhazians, Russians and representatives of other nationalities.

Does your mother, as a Georgian, have any feeling of discomfort due to the fact that she lives in Abkhazia?

No discomfort.

In your opinion, has not a period of certain warming begun between the Abkhazians and Georgians at the everyday level?

Of course it did. Time takes its toll. People have digested what happened and are getting used to coexistence. The first four or five years after the war were like hell in terms of relationships. When I could not cross the border, I was forced to swim across the Enguri and thus enter Gali. Both sides looked at me like hostiles. There was danger on both sides, but I did it anyway because there were many in need of emergency surgical care.

What does it mean to swim across, in the literal sense?

In the literal sense, then where, then where. Near different villages: Shamgona, Koki, Chuburkhindzhi, Tagiloni, Nabakevi...

However, it wasn’t summer all the time; in winter you also had to swim across the Inguri?

Many times. I was even detained.

This is the plot of a feature film or story...

I don’t know how the film will turn out, but when I received a signal from there that someone needed help, I put everything aside and went there. There were no mobile phones back then. One day I received a letter written on a piece of newspaper, saying, Otar, help, and I immediately went.

How were you caught?

I got caught twice. They noticed and detained. They took me to a high security official. I said that I was a doctor and had come to help the sick. He looked me carefully from head to toe and said, “I really want to believe it, but you don’t look like a professor.” And I replied that the next time I move to Abkhazia, I will take with me my doctor’s and professor’s diplomas in medical sciences. “Are you sure that I will let you go?” he laughed. Let go is your choice, but if you let go, I will definitely come, I said. When I was detained for the second time, they took me back to him. He asked if I had a professor's ID. After the first arrest, I carried with me copies of my doctor’s and professor’s diplomas. Yes, I say, and presented these documents to him. He looked through them and ordered that I be given permission to officially enter Abkhazia.

Was he himself an Abkhazian?

Yes of course. Since then, I have officially entered Abkhazia, and no one creates problems for me.

And the Russians too?

And the Russians too.

What is that person's name?

He is still in a high position today, and perhaps it is not worth recording his first and last name.

How many operations have you performed in Abkhazia?

At the first stage, when I crossed there illegally and also worked illegally, I performed 41 operations. These were operations performed under non-stationary conditions. Either near the walnut bushes, or in the tangerine plantations...

What was the outcome of the operations performed under such conditions?

Of those 41 operations, all were successful.

Marvelous.

I performed a unique operation on an Abkhazian newborn with a congenital heart defect. He survived and was named Otar, my name. I brought him to Tbilisi and baptized him in the Kashueti church. Now he is 12 years old. The first stage was so bad that they didn’t let me through at the border, and I only helped Georgian patients.

Did the Abkhazians not trust you?

The situation was difficult, there was a guerrilla war going on, and the trust factor was extremely low. Once I was in a Gali hospital when three wounded Abkhazians were brought in. Due to bleeding, it was impossible to transport them to Sukhumi. Moreover, in Sukhumi, when they called there and explained the situation, they said that they did not have a surgeon with the necessary qualifications for this matter. Having learned that Marshava was in Gali, they decided that I would perform the operation. I provided all three with the necessary surgical care. After this story, Abkhaz patients often come to me asking for help. By the way, after this story, the Georgian side also showed interest, in particular the then Minister of Health Avtandil Jorbenadze. By that time I had already performed 59 operations, and when I returned, they gave me my salary. I don’t remember exactly how much it was, but with that money I bought a sufficient amount of medicine. He took them to Abkhazia and performed 252 operations. Someone, it turns out, told Ardzynba that Professor Marshava was coming from Tbilisi, performing operations in Abkhazia and saying, let’s ban it. As far as I know, Ardzynba answered this way: why ban if the doctor is doing a noble deed. Therefore, my activity was actually allowed, but it was not written on paper and formalized. In 2009 alone, we achieved that, based on a request received from Abkhazia, the Georgian side financed 57 operations and 307 consultations. Based on these consultations, patients were selected, some of whom were transported to Tbilisi, and some to Kutaisi.

You are the "Hero of Imedi". The Imedi TV company had such a gallery, probably because of this activity, didn't it?

Of course. I'm a doctor, and I didn't have to do anything else. I don’t know how heroic this activity is, but Imedi, of course, appreciated this activity of mine.

You often say that you dissociate yourself from politics and limit yourself only to your specialty. However, if your activities in Abkhazia contributed to the warming of relations between Georgians and Abkhazians, then isn’t this politics? Which politician has done more in this direction than you could?

I don’t know, politics is not my thing, but if my dedication in the medical field has yielded any positive political results, then that’s excellent.

Do you think the Abkhazians are aware of the situation that having allegedly achieved independence, and with the recognition of this independence by Russia, they have put their own people in danger of complete assimilation with Russia, whereas during their stay as part of Georgia nothing threatened their identity and culture?

I have many Abkhazian friends, in whose minds the questions have already appeared: Where is Abkhazia going? What did Abkhazia get from what happened? What awaits Abkhazia tomorrow? Why so many victims? etc. Today in Abkhazia there are schools that are called Abkhazian schools, but they do not teach anything in the Abkhazian language. I think that they do not yet fully understand the problem they face, but this process has already begun. Certain issues are already rising to the surface in the public consciousness.

You are not a politician, but you are an observant person and a patriot. Do you think there will be a mechanism for restoring the territorial integrity of Georgia?

Neither Georgians nor Abkhazians will be able to resolve this problem, even if there is a mutual desire for this. This way we will not go beyond the scope of public diplomacy. International organizations and Western countries will also not be able to solve this problem until we compare interests with Russia, and, as the Russians say, we do not get the go-ahead from them.

For me, the term return of territory is not entirely acceptable. I don’t need the territory of Abkhazia without Abkhazians. I want to bring back love between Georgians and Abkhazians. At one table in Gudauta, as a sign of respect, they let me listen to “Gamarjoba abkhazeto sheni” (“Hello Abkhazia,” a song with lyrics by Galaktion Tabidze). When an Abkhazian guest comes to me in Kutaisi, I joke that a representative of the multi-million Abkhazian people has come to see me. I would like bantering Georgians and Abkhazians who love each other, not territory. These are not empty words. Everyone who has lived in Abkhazia, who knows that people, the grace of that heaven, that land, thinks so.

Baton Otar, how many operations have you performed in total?

I counted to five thousand, then I got tired of it and stopped counting.

When you fumble with your hands in the human body, who is it then for you, just matter?

I didn't have a patient I operated on and I didn't develop a friendship or spiritual relationship with him.

Aren't you tired of doing so many operations?
Helping the sick is my life, and when I get tired of it, probably then I’ll get tired of living.

He talks about famous Georgians in Russia and the most interesting facts of their biography.

Zurab Tsereteli

The famous 82-year-old Russian sculptor, painter and teacher. His sculptures decorate many countries and cities around the world. He is the president of the Russian Academy of Arts, as well as a laureate of various awards and titles. Famous works are the monument to Peter the Great, John Paul II, the monuments “Friendship Forever” and “Good Conquers Evil.”

The author of more than five thousand works of painting, graphics, sculpture and monumental decorative art grew up in Tbilisi, in a family where the spirit of artistic art was in the air. He studied in France, where he communicated with Pablo Picasso and Marc Chagall. Since the late 1960s and still active in the field of monumental art.

Tsereteli is the author of the largest statue of Jesus Christ in the world (80 meters), which may be placed in St. Petersburg. The master plans to build a museum named after him in China and create a monument to singer Zhanna Friske. Despite Tsereteli's outstanding achievements, the sculptor is criticized for his gigantomania and accused of "monopolizing" monumental projects in Moscow.

Interesting fact - Tsereteli appears as a tireless, cheerful artist-sculptor Zviad Tsurindeli in the novel by writer Sergei Sokolkin “Russian Chock”.

Nikolai Tsiskaridze

Nikolai Tsiskaridze is undoubtedly one of the most famous and talented ballet dancers of our time. A native of Tbilisi, he was a prodigy from childhood, and his long legs and crazy love for ballet led him to the Moscow Bolshoi Theater, where he dreamed of serving from an early age.

photo: courtesy of Nikolay Tsiskaridze

Today Tsiskaridze is a twice laureate of the State Prize of Russia, three times a laureate of the Golden Mask theater award, a member of the Presidential Council for Culture and Art, as well as the rector of the Vaganova Academy of Russian Ballet in St. Petersburg.

Ballet dancer Nikolai Tsiskaridze in a scene from the ballet "The Queen of Spades" staged by Roland Petit

Nikolay is a fan of the works of Leonid Parfenov, Vitaly Vulf and Edward Radzinsky. His favorite fairy tale is Andersen's The Little Mermaid. The forty-two-year-old artist is famous for his complex character and boundless willpower, and also avoids talking about his personal life and says that he is in no hurry to get married.

Cult film director, actor, screenwriter, publicist, author of such popularly beloved films that entire generations have grown up with: “I’m Walking Through Moscow”, “Don’t Cry!”, “Afonya”, “Mimino”, “Autumn Marathon”, “Passport” , "Kin-Dza-Dza!" and many more etc.

George spent his childhood in Moscow, where the family moved from Tbilisi in 1931. Here he graduated from the Moscow Architectural Institute in 1954, and two years later he entered the Higher Directing Courses at the Mosfilm film studio. Danelia is the cousin of the Georgian actress Sofiko Chiaureli, whom he filmed only once - in the film “Don’t Cry.” Almost half of Danelia’s films were written by the Georgian composer Gia Kancheli, who also composed a composition for string orchestra “Little Daneliada” as a gift to the director.

Leo Boqueria

Leading cardiac surgeon of Russia and famous scientist. For outstanding services in medicine, he repeatedly became the person and legend of the year. Throughout his career, Boqueria actively and fruitfully used the experimental method. He was one of the first in the world to perform simultaneous operations to correct congenital and acquired heart defects.

A special merit of Leo Antonovich is the performance of the first operations in the USSR on fully implanted artificial heart ventricles. Boqueria is the initiator and pioneer of minimally invasive heart surgery, including the use of three-dimensional imaging of the surgical field to improve the safety of the operation itself. Doctor from God - Leo Bockeria - 76 years old.

Outstanding opera singer (lyric-dramatic tenor) and teacher. He played football since childhood: at the age of 16 he joined Dynamo Sukhumi, then became captain of the Georgian national team at the age of 20, and two years later he joined the main team of Dynamo Tbilisi. But serious injuries led to the end of his sports career.

Sputnik/Vadim Shekun

From 1965 to 1974, Zurab Sotkilava was a soloist at the Georgian Opera and Ballet Theater named after Z. Paliashvili. Trained at La Scala Theater in Milan. At the Bolshoi Theater in Moscow he made his debut as Jose in 1973 (Carmen by Georges Bizet), and in 1974 he joined the theater's opera troupe. He taught at the Moscow Conservatory.

In July 2015, information about the opera singer’s cancer diagnosis spread to the media. Soon Sotkilava told reporters that he had defeated cancer after a successful course of chemotherapy. His first concert after recovery took place on October 25, 2015 in Sergiev Posad, near Moscow.

Oleg Basilashvili

His film characters - Samokhvalov, Buzykin, Count Merzlyaev, pianist Ryabinin, Woland - are the most charming and beloved characters of Soviet cinema. Basilashvili, who has acted in more than 75 films, is known for his opposition views.

Oleg Basilashvili (Prince K.) during the play "Uncle's Dream" based on F.M. Dostoevsky, staged by the artistic director of the Bolshoi Drama Theater named after G.A. Tovstonogov (BDT) Timur Chkheidze.

Oleg Basilashvili could not get along with his actress wife Tatyana Doronina, but he is happy with journalist Galina Mshanskaya, with whom the artist has been together for more than 50 years. The couple raised two daughters who became journalists, like their mother. But longer than his wife, Oleg Basilashvili remains faithful only to the Bolshoi Drama Theater.

During the Soviet era, Oleg toured the world a lot. Once, while on tour in Japan, Basilashvili received a huge fee by Soviet standards, which he spent on six pairs of shoes for his wife.

Sergei Chonishvili

Russian theater and film actor, official voice of the STS TV channel since 1998. At the age of 16 he came from Tula to Moscow, where he graduated from the Shchukin School. He played in Lenkom and the Oleg Tabakov Theater, and starred in more than 60 films.

The voice of Sergei Chonishvili has been voiced and dubbed into many Russian commercials, documentaries, audio books and announcements on various TV channels. His voice is to some extent as recognizable on modern television as Levitan’s voice was once. In 2000, Chonishvili successfully made his debut in literature.

Grigory Chkhartishvili

Grigory Chkhartishvili - aka Boris Akunin, an outstanding writer, publicist, orientalist, translator and winner of numerous professional awards. Born in 1956 in Zestafoni (Imereti region), in the family of artillery officer Shalva Chkhartishvili and teacher of Russian language and literature Berta Brazinskaya. In 1958, the family moved to Moscow.

In 1979, Grigory Chkhartishvili graduated from the historical and philological department of the Institute of Asian Countries of Moscow State University named after M.V. Lomonosov, receiving a diploma in Japanese history. Translated Japanese, American and English literature. And in 1998 he began writing fiction under the pseudonym Boris Akunin. Chkhartishvili-Akunin became popular in the early 2000s thanks to a series of detective novels about Erast Fandorin (Azazel, The Turkish Gambit, The Death of Achilles, State Councilor, Special Assignments, Leviathan, Coronation) ). The works of the Fandorin series have been translated into more than 30 languages and have been filmed several times.

The writer is married. The first wife is Japanese, with whom Akunin lived for several years. The second wife, Erika Ernestovna, is a proofreader, translator and agent of the writer. Have no children. Since 2014, Gregory has been working and living in France, Brittany region. In October 2016, he came to his historical homeland, Georgia, where he met with Georgian readers and told them that he was looking for a plot in the country for a new book about Fandorin in Georgia.

Valery and Konstantin Meladze

Stars of modern Russian pop music and real engines of show business. Natives of Batumi (Adjarian Autonomous Republic), they began to study music in their youth. Now Valery is a successful pop singer, while Kontantin is one of the best composers in the country. Not long ago, both brothers left their first families and married their wards from the VIA Gra group: Valery - Albina Dzhanabaeva, and Konstantin - Vera Brezhneva.

Otar Kushanashvili

The controversial Russian music journalist and TV presenter comes from Kutaisi (Imereti region). His parents had nine children. Kushanashvili decided to become a journalist in his hometown, starting to publish in the Kutaisskaya Pravda newspaper. Later he entered the Faculty of Journalism at Tbilisi State University, from where, according to him, he was expelled.

And soon Otar left for Moscow, where he first worked as a night watchman at a school and washed floors at a train station. Then he sent out his resume to 35 editors, but received only one offer and at the beginning of 1993 he became a correspondent for the New Look newspaper, created by Evgeny Dodolev, and then, on the latter’s recommendation, he switched to television under the tutelage of Ivan Demidov.

Soon Otar Kushanashvili interviews with figures from Russian show business and becomes a prominent figure in the Moscow elite. He was noticed in numerous scandals: for example, after the 2002 story on Channel One, when during the broadcast of the Eurovision Song Contest, Kushanashvili swore obscenely live on Andrei Malakhov’s program, he was deprived of the opportunity to appear on television for a long time.

Tamara Gverdtsiteli

In the past, she was a soloist of the legendary VIA "Mziuri", in the present she is one of the most talented Georgian singers on the Russian stage. Tamara Mikhailovna’s father is from the ancient Georgian noble family of Gverdtsiteli, her mother is Jewish, the granddaughter of an Odessa rabbi. Gverdtsiteli performed with Michel Legrand, who, introducing the singer to the audience of three thousand, said: “Paris! Remember this name.” And Tamara conquered Paris.

She performs songs in more than ten languages: Georgian, Russian, French, Italian, Spanish, English, Hebrew, Ukrainian, Armenian, German, etc. Tamara Mikhailovna’s talent is limitless - the artist sings in operas and musicals, acts in films, and also participates in various music and entertainment projects on television.

Rezo Gigineishvili

Popular Russian film director, producer and screenwriter of Georgian origin. Born in 1982 in Tbilisi in the family of musician Irina Tsikoridze and doctor David Gigineishvili, who in Soviet times led one of the Borjomi health resorts. In 1991 he moved to Moscow, where he soon began working on television.

He graduated from the directing department of VGIK (course of Marlen Khutsiev), was the second director in Fyodor Bondarchuk’s film “9th Company”. Gigineishvili's most sensational films are “Heat,” 2Love with an Accent,” “Without Men” and the television series “The Last of the Magikians.” He is known for his high-profile marriages with singer Anastasia Kochetkova and Nikita Mikhalkov’s daughter, actress Nadezhda Mikhalkova.

Soso Pavliashvili

One of the most charismatic Georgians and singers in Russian show business. Father Ramin Iosifovich Pavliashvili is an architect, mother Aza Aleksandrovna Pavliashvili (nee Kustova) is a housewife. He became involved with the stage when he served in the army. And after the service, at the age of 24, he began to sing.

Pavliashvili was a member of the Iveria ensemble. In 1988, during the Winter Olympics in Calgary, Soso played the violin in the Iveria ensemble, and once sang “Suliko” in front of an audience of 50,000 people in the city center, the performance of which shocked the audience. In 1989, he performed at a competition in Jurmala, where he received the Grand Prix.

Soso is famous for his greater love of love: the singer’s first wife was Nino Uchaneishvili, who bore him a son, Levan. After his first marriage, Soso lived for a long time with the famous singer Irina Ponarovskaya, but the couple never legalized the relationship. Since 1997, the Georgian singer has been married to former backing vocalist of the Mironi group Irina Patlakh, with whom Pavliashvili has two daughters, Lisa and Sandra.

Evgeniy Papunaishvili

Famous Russian dancer and choreographer, native Muscovite. Several years ago, Papunaishvili opened his own “Evgeniy Papunaishvili School of Dance.” Now he is one of the most expensive choreographers and dance teachers in Russia.

The choreographer became more famous and recognizable after his participation and repeated victories in the project “Dancing with the Stars”, where Evgeniy danced with Natasha Koroleva, Irina Saltykova, Yulia Savicheva, Ksenia Sobchak, Albina Dzhanabaeva, Alena Vodonaeva, Tatyana Bulanova, Glyuk'oZa and others .

The Georgian heartthrob was credited with many affairs, with almost every one of his star partners. But the choreographer himself confirms only one romance - with Ksenia Sobchak. But the romance ended and today the dancer’s personal life is again under the radar of cameras. The man is still single, rich and famous.

Grigory Leps (Lepsveridze)

Sochi Georgian and a real phenomenon on the Russian stage in recent years. At school I was a poor student, but was seriously involved in football and music. In the early 1990s, Leps performed romances in the restaurant of one of the Sochi hotels, and spent the fees on casinos, slot machines, booze and women. At the age of 30 he went to Moscow for fame and he succeeded.

In 1995, the debut album “God Bless You” was released, the song from which “Natalie” quickly gained popularity. Already in 1998, Grigory received an invitation from Alla Pugacheva to sing at the Olimpiysky in “Christmas Meetings”. Leps is known for his special, “growling” voice timbre. He defines his style as “pop song with rock elements.”

Leps is a businessman, restaurateur, and produces a line of glasses called “Leps Optics.” In 2013, the US Treasury Department accused Leps of involvement in the “post-Soviet mafia” and blacklisted him. According to US official services, Leps had the nickname “Grisha” in the criminal environment, officially lived in Thailand and transported mafia money. The musician treated this with irony and even called the new record “Gangster No. 1.” He was married twice and has four children.

One of the most charming, fashionable and talented singers of Georgian origin in Russia. Having quickly burst onto the Russian stage from Tbilisi as the new soloist of "A" Studio, Keti Topuria immediately attracted attention not only with her incredibly beautiful voice, but also with her exotic appearance. Today, thirty-year-old Keti is not only a successful singer, but also a promising clothing designer for adults and children, and also a happy mother of daughter Olivia, who was born to Katie in her marriage to businessman Lev Geykhman.

An interesting trend is emerging!
Increasingly, residents of capital cities are coming to us for treatment.
In some cases, this is a monetary calculation: our paid services are much cheaper than in Moscow and St. Petersburg.
But there are other options. I won’t meddle in other people’s affairs, I’ll only tell you about some cases when this concerned my relatives.
My dear aunt, who lives in Moscow, has coronary artery disease, severe heart rhythm disturbances and hypertension.
She called me during a period of deterioration. I advised not to self-medicate and call an ambulance.
They took my Larisa Pavlovna to a certain cardiology center with a solid reputation.
During the seven days that she spent in this center, the attending physician entered the room once!
Therefore, the treatment proceeded like this: my aunt’s husband obtained the results of the research and reported them to me. I consulted with our cardiologists and “prescribed” the necessary medications to my aunt over the phone.
Aunt’s husband ran to the pharmacy and bought medications recommended by our cardiologists.
In addition, I told my aunt what kind of research she should have done.
Aunt’s husband, a more than honored person in the past, talked to the doctor dozens of times a day. doctor, head of department, doctors on duty. All these people looked at him in bewilderment and did nothing.
“Uncle Willy!” I explained to my aunt’s husband. “They’re just waiting for money.” Give them as much as they are supposed to (find out how much!) and you will get treatment like no other!
“Who should I give it to?!” the guy was indignant. “They’re all Georgians!” It’s obvious from a mile away that they don’t know a damn thing about their profession!
By the way, this Willie is Georgian on his mother’s side. And on the father's side - a Kazakh in one bottle with a Ukrainian.
Therefore, he considers himself a purebred Russian.
Georgian doctors are a completely different story!
For some reason, they are completely absent from hospitals and clinics in the periphery, but in Moscow there is a complete box. Perhaps there are only more Georgian thieves in law in Moscow than Georgian doctors.
I don't understand what has changed! It has been known since Soviet times that Georgians cannot be doctors. I already wrote about this once.

And now, wherever you spit, you’ll end up with a Georgian doctor.
There are more and more of them at the Institute of Neurosurgery named after. Burdenko. And every time you have to deal with them at work, it’s a bummer: nothing can be resolved constructively. They pull rubber, chew snot... Disgusting.
In short: they brought my aunt to us and admitted her to our cardiology department.

The same thing happened to my cousin. They crushed his kidney stones here.
In Moscow he could not achieve any sense. At the same time, he is far from a poor man and was ready to pay as much as he was told.
Another relative of mine decided to pay for decent money to treat depression in a paid department of the hospital on Poteshnaya Street in Moscow.
I stayed there for seven days and only on the eighth day did the Kabardian psychiatrist, having learned that my relative was from Nalchik, show interest in him.
We later treated a relative in our city for ridiculous money, but very effectively.
I'm not even talking about the endless telephone consultations that have to be given to relatives living in Moscow and St. Petersburg.
My wife's niece was maliciously persuaded to undergo surgical treatment of a completely ephemeral fracture of the lower limb. But all that was required was nothing: to puncture the knee joint, remove blood from its cavity and fix it. limb for three weeks. All this was well diagnosed via Skype.
So it may be good that they are laying off doctors in Moscow.
But here’s the problem: all these Georgians, North Caucasians, etc. will not be laid off. They will pay off.
They will fire their own uncomplaining and hard-working fellow tribesmen: Russians, Belarusians, Ukrainians.

MEN'S TALK

Former Minister of Health of Georgia and Ukraine Alexander KVITASHVILI: “A good surgeon in Georgia earns 15-20 thousand dollars a month or more. White!"

How long does it take to reform Ukrainian medicine? Are Ulyana Suprun and her team in the right place? it turns out for Ukraine. Former Minister of Health of Georgia and Ukraine Alexander Kvitashvili spoke about this, as well as about the Ukrainian pharmaceutical mafia and corruption in medicine in Dmitry Gordon’s author’s program on the “112 Ukraine” channel. The Internet publication GORDON exclusively publishes a text version of the interview.

“Saakashvili was the locomotive of reforms in Georgia: he led the way and took many of the blows.”

— Alexander, I have a lot of questions for you, and they will primarily concern the secret: why did it work for Georgia and not for Ukraine? You are a historian, you graduated from the history department of Tbilisi State University - did this not stop you from becoming the Minister of Health in two countries?

— This helped us not to repeat the historical mistakes of others ( smiling), and I try to learn from other people’s mistakes, although sometimes I make them myself... After Tbilisi University, I note, I still studied in the States, and completed my master’s degree there.

- Where exactly?

- In New York, in 92-93. Received a master's degree in public administration.

— Does the Minister of Health not have to be a doctor?

— I think it’s absolutely not necessary. If a person has a medical education, that’s good, but, no offense to my friends and colleagues, let me tell you, a practicing doctor should not be a minister - it would be better if he was engaged in medical practice and saving people’s lives.

— For two and a half years you headed the Georgian Ministry of Health, and Kakha Bendukidze was the locomotive of all Georgian reforms?

— In the country as a whole, Misha Saakashvili was such a locomotive, and Kakha was an ideologist. In general, a star team was assembled then, and it’s a shame that Kakha is no longer alive, he didn’t have time to do much.

I repeat, it was his ideology, he came up with a lot of interesting solutions to problems, he picked up a wonderful group of very young people, 22-23 years old, who were looking for some innovations, thinking about how to overcome barriers, regulating all the incomprehensible laws and rules ... By the way, this is interesting, we at the ministry wanted to do something similar - for someone young to come, who did not live in the Soviet Union and cannot understand why the rules for storing potatoes exist... Just yesterday in one of the restaurants I I saw a grid in which these norms lay: like storing potatoes, fruits and vegetables...

— Well, many standards have been preserved in the Ukrainian Ministry of Health - from the 50s or even from the 30s of the last century...

— The oldest one is from 1924: we removed it in 2016, but, returning to the reforms in Georgia, I will say again: Saakashvili was the locomotive, he walked ahead, took many blows, and the team that Misha assembled then in my opinion, it was simply perfect. I’m not talking about mistakes or excesses - only about success, and success was a consequence of the fact that the people whom Saakashvili united and ignited did not spare themselves for the sake of the prosperity of their homeland.

“The Americans did not make reforms for us, but they invested a lot of money in education in Georgia”

— Many people in Russia and Ukraine also told me: “What are you talking about Georgian reforms? Firstly, the population there is four and a half million, and secondly, the Americans came and did everything for them.” Did the Americans really carry out reforms for you?

- No, but there is some truth in this. No one came to us, but the Americans at one time invested a lot of money in education in Georgia, and the Georgians quickly got used to it and learned to live differently.

— So, Georgians were invited to US universities?

— Yes, I left under the Franklin program, there were also a lot of guys from Ukraine, we studied together. Then about 300 people were recruited using various tests.

— Only from Georgia?

- No, from the entire former USSR, this was the first batch of students who went to study at the most prestigious universities in America - starting with Berkeley and Columbia University. It took root in Georgia; such a program worked in 1992, then others began.

— Did you take the best?

— Yes, I had to pass exams and get into an American university, and the US government financed it. Why do I think this had a big effect? Because, at the age of 20 to 25, living in the States, you absorb a lot of new things, and first we began to think like they did, then to comprehend science, then to work...

After our Tbilisi University, which I love very much, I was shocked that in the States you have to study every day, and not spend a whole semester walking around, and then prepare for an exam for three days and pass it, that outside the classroom they are friends with you, but in No one will let you cheat on the exam. Now Hollywood culture with their Mickey Mouse, Coca-Cola and so on is much closer to me than “Masha and the Bear” - I don’t even know what it is or what Russian pop music is in general. This is not a political speech - it just happened, and when I went to some meetings, it was easier to communicate with Canadians and Americans than with colleagues from Russia or even from Ukraine.

- Okay, now confirm or deny: were these guys from Georgia recruited by the CIA?

— (Smiling). No, no one came to us, asked for anything, and even if they recruited us, what should we do then?

- Next stereotype. They say that when things were very bad in Georgia under Shevardnadze, influential Americans gathered young patriotic Georgians who studied at their universities and said: “If you love your homeland, go to Georgia, don’t steal, carry out reforms there, and we will help you here.” “We’ll put the money into the accounts” - is this true or not?

“I haven’t heard anything like that, and, unfortunately, no one offered to put money into accounts, but there was always support from the States, because even during the time of Shevardnadze, several attempts were made to recruit young people into the government.

—Have you tried it yet?

- Yes, and the same Saakashvili was Shevardnadze’s Minister of Justice - not for long, but he was, he was a young Minister of Finance, Minister of Economy...

—Nevertheless, some influential Americans gathered you together and supervised you?

- No, and although everyone thinks that this is somehow centralized, this was definitely not the case.

- Many of our politicians are simply sure of this!

- No, it’s just that I studied in New York in 1992, someone else studied there at the same time in Columbia, and we think the same way...

-...it’s easy for you to find a common language...

- ... yes, and understand each other.

“Why did it happen in Georgia? Because we started from scratch"

- Now let’s move on to the burning topic - the Georgian health care reform. I saw a lot in Georgia with my own eyes, including going to hospitals with you, and it not only amazed me, I can’t even find the right words. Especially when you come from Ukraine, you see how people are banging their heads against the wall here and nothing comes of it, because the resistance of the system is diabolical, and you think: “How the hell did it work out in Georgia?” What - let's talk about the main thing now - was the Georgian health care reform?

- Well, first I’ll note that this argument, they say, Ukraine is a big country, and Georgia is small, therefore it’s impossible here, but it was possible there, I don’t accept it. The other side of the coin for a small country is that only 100 people, recognizable, authoritative, can influence the situation - it was just as difficult to carry out reforms there as in Ukraine.

The first steps to reform health care in Georgia began in 95-96, with the adoption of a new Constitution.

— Under Shevardnadze?

- Yes, in particular, the article was removed, which is in the Constitution of Ukraine, that the state provides everything for free, it was written that the state guarantees access to quality medicine, everyone has the right to this, and so on, that is, the state itself It was positioned as a guarantor, but the rest was already spelled out in the laws relating to healthcare. This is the first step, and the second was taken in 1996, and in principle, this is what Ukraine is doing now: Semashko is removing the soviet model, so real reforms began in Georgia in the mid-90s. They went with varying degrees of success, but you know what’s important? Despite the fact that the ministers and the government itself changed several times, the general line of reforms in the health care system continued as it had begun, and even if some ministers did something bad, little sabotage, then they still followed this course were returning.

Why did it happen? I think because we started from scratch. It is impossible to compare the initial position of Ukraine and Georgia; in Georgia it is real...

-...everything fell...

- ...yes, everything was already destroyed, and, paradoxical as it may sound, it was good - in the sense that it was easier to build something new. Of course, what was terrible was that a huge number of people did not have any access to medical services and so on. We started from scratch, this process started before me, continued after me, so I won’t attribute any special merit to myself, but in my work I proceeded from the fact that it couldn’t get any worse, so you won’t go into the red, only in "plus". I think it’s the same in Ukraine: it shouldn’t be worse, although in your country this structure that exists is more or less working. Somehow, let’s say, but in Georgia, besides Tbilisi, Kutaisi and, probably, Batumi...

-...everything was destroyed...

“I was looking for two: the successful one and the one who failed, and I learned more from the one who was unable to do what he wanted.”

-What exactly did you do? - let's take it step by step. The state sold all the hospitals, right?

— Yes, but this is already the second or third stage of the reform. I think we took the right steps, and in this, by the way, the World Bank helped us a lot - financially. They allocated money to us, we found experts ourselves, it was extremely easy to work with them, as well as with the American government, the European Union and other organizations. We said: “We want to do this,” and, to be honest, no one believed, we convinced: “You won’t succeed!” I asked: “Why?” - “No one has ever done this before.” - “Then how do you know that it won’t work?” In the end, they agreed, provided funds, and we ourselves selected people who would help us with these reforms. Personally, I was looking for two: the successful one and the one who failed, and I learned more from the one who was unable to do what he wanted. We looked at Croatia, Estonia, China...

— ...did you study international experience?

- Yes, and we had people who helped. There would be no reform if the entire power structure in Georgia had not been reformed, because healthcare without reform of the police, prosecutor’s office, education, and judicial system is impossible to improve, everything is interconnected. Without reform of the bureaucracy, without unified bases, you understand? It’s impossible to take medicine separately and create a miracle there if you don’t have access to databases and there are no specialists...

— In a word, if football is not developed in the country, one super team cannot appear...

— ...especially in water polo, so reforms in other sectors helped us significantly. It must also be said that before me, a huge amount of work was done with money from the World Bank; there was a gradation of the poor in the country. This program is like this: any person who considers himself poor can come and register, and then social workers go to him and do an inventory.

- What he has?

- Yes, housing and everything else. 184 different factors were checked, there was a very complex mechanism, and as a result, a formula for the level of poverty of a person or family was derived, and a gradation appeared: chronically poor, more or less, average income... By the way, poverty in Georgia helped get out of the crisis - because there was no money We didn’t have enough for anything, we tried to spend the budget as correctly as possible.

Based on this survey and research, it was accepted that those who are poorer will receive more - this, in my opinion, is social justice, but what does it mean to receive more? Financial assistance, free travel, vouchers for university studies and so on, plus health insurance.

That is, the first stage of the reform is to determine for whom we are doing all this, and the same insurance then played a huge role in the creation of the medical network itself. We had a social basis - our number of poor people, there were a lot of them, about a million people, and we tried to make a good insurance policy for this million.

— Was the state involved in all this?

— Yes, I bought policies for these people from private insurance companies.

What did this guarantee? That the state will invest money in the system - not to give it to hospitals so that they can save 250 beds for something, because nowhere else they receive such treatment, but to invest it in the healthcare system itself so that it develops.

“When I left, there was only one public hospital left: the central one, which no one wanted to buy”

— Insurance medicine, then, is a mandatory condition for reform?

- Yes, but for her to appear, something needs to be prepared. We had a group of people ready, whom we focused on, this insurance system had already been created, and a little later movements with the network began, because we have a starting position - people, insurance companies and money, but where will they go? If a person, relatively speaking, lives in Batumi, but something is not there, he needs to go to Tbilisi, so the second stage is the development of a network of medical institutions.

— Have you sold all the hospitals and clinics into private hands?

- That’s it - when I left, in my opinion, there was only one state-owned hospital left: the central hospital, which no one wanted to buy ( laughs).

— So you realized that it’s better to give everything to private owners and not burden the state with support for this fund?

- Yes, and I’ll explain why. We realized that it is cheaper and better to buy a service in a highly competitive market than to create this market ourselves and then implement this system ourselves.

— Is it true that most hospitals in Georgia were built from scratch, and in rural areas, in the mountains, there are even better hospitals than in Tbilisi?

“It’s a bit of an exaggeration that it’s better in villages, but the truth is that the hospital system was built on the principle of geographical accessibility, so it happens that there is no big city nearby, but there is a normal medical center where people from villages go. In 1998 (I remember working on this), a master plan for Georgia’s hospital network was created - it was a project of the World Bank, the Georgian Ministry of Health, which asked for money for this (under Shevardnadze), and the Kaiser Permanente company, which could implement all this.

- It’s always calculated - it’s a system...

- Of course, and based on this plan, which Kakha Bendukidze found 10 years later, we began to work, changing some wordings.

— What is the percentage of completely new hospitals built from scratch?

— I would say 70 percent, and now it’s much more, but, you know, even those that were repaired were considered new: only a skeleton was left of them.

— Luxurious imported equipment, tools, everything is modern, beautiful...

- ...at the level of American and European clinics...

- Well, you saw everything yourself.

“Since the 90s, doctors in Georgia have been receiving white salaries”

“I saw it and now I want to tell everyone.” I talked with Georgian surgeons in a regular hospital, and they told me: “Our principle is this: if you are an average specialist, fewer people come to you, and if you are outstanding, there is no end to clients.” A family of three pays $40 a month for insurance, right?

- And if another child is born, it’s also something like this...

- Well, plus or minus, about that.

- It’s absolutely affordable, besides, if you’re a weak doctor, then your salary is weak, if you’re an average doctor, your salary is average, and good surgeons, I was told, get 10, 12, and even 15 thousand dollars in salary - is this true?

- Is it true. Per month.

- When I said on our TV program: they say, I returned from Georgia, and good surgeons there earn 10-15 thousand dollars a month, God, what happened after that! They wrote to me on Facebook: “You are a fool, a storyteller, why are you hanging noodles on our ears, what are 15 thousand dollars?” One of the managers of a large Kyiv clinic, however, agreed with me: “Well, 15... You can get 20 - I was there, operated on and I know that”...

- It's true: it's possible. I won’t say that all 100 percent of surgeons earn that much, but a good doctor who works in a normal center has a decent salary - 15, 20 or more.

— Thousands of dollars a month?

- White?

- Well, yes - to be honest, since the 90s, doctors in Georgia have been receiving a flat salary.

- Let's move on. I was told that when good doctors began to leave Georgia, Saakashvili gathered them (you seemed to be present too) and asked: “What do you want to stay?” They answered: they say, each operation has its own percentage, and he went for it - was it like that?

- Yes and no. We organized a forum in the States and in Tbilisi. For me, the goal has never been to drive a person back to Georgia who, for example, works successfully in Atlanta - you cannot force it, and it is not necessary. If he lives there and is happy with everything, then why make anyone unhappy?.. Yes, it’s good in Georgia now, but everything is relative: in such a short period to create such conditions for the development of science...

-...like in America...

- ...or in Germany it’s impossible, so no one forced anyone, but many doctors from abroad returned to their homeland because the living and working conditions there had improved.

“If not a doctor, who should have a good house? From an official, from a prosecutor?

- But is it true that when a medical team performs an operation, everyone has their own percentage?

- Yes, absolutely.

— Suppose the operation costs two or three thousand dollars, and the person knows: “I am a surgeon, I am entitled to such and such a percentage”?

— This is part of the contract between the doctor and the clinic...

- ...and it turned out that you can earn money legally...

- ...that the state ensures this and that doctors in Tbilisi and other cities of Georgia, as befits good doctors, walk with their heads held high, knowing that they are completely legally and deservedly receiving huge amounts of money and paying taxes...

- This is true. A friend of mine (he’s a couple of years older than me, in his 50s), a pediatric heart surgeon, recently said: “I’m tired,” and set off on a boat around the world. The man just retired: he had a center, he worked a lot...

-...and his well-being now allows him to rest...

- That's right, and that's normal, you know?

- Certainly...

“I don’t understand this irritation: he’s a doctor, and he has such a house... Well, listen, if not a doctor, who should have a good house?” From an official, from a prosecutor?

— Admit it, as the Minister of Health of Georgia, did you become a dollar millionaire or even a multimillionaire?

- I didn’t, and there was no such goal - I didn’t even intend to. I knew that I was coming to work there for no more than two or three years, and I think that rotation of ministers after two years (not all, but such as the head of the Ministry of Health) is not bad.

- Even like that?

— If the system is built correctly, and if every minister comes, fires everyone who came before him and starts to radically change everything, this is not the case. After two years of work, I began to feel very comfortable there—not financially, of course.

- How much did you earn?

— About five thousand lari at an exchange rate of 1.5 - three thousand dollars.

- A little...

— In 2008, it was normal: here I earned 3,500 hryvnia! ( Laughs).

“I received an invitation to come here from Boris Lozhkin, and had a job interview at the Presidential Administration. The President, Prime Minister Yatsenyuk and Speaker Groysman were there.”

— In 2014, you became one of three foreigners invited to the renewed Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine as a minister, but who exactly invited you?

- Well, this is actually a unique story. I was in a group that worked on reforms in Ukraine - it was financed by the Soros Foundation, and we wrote the concept of reforms under the Ministry of Health. I was in the States, my friend dialed me and said that there would be a call from Ukraine: talk, they say, and you will make the decision yourself. They called me: “We want to meet you in Kyiv.” I replied that I was in the States and would arrive in a week, but they said no, they say...

- ...urgent need...

- ...today Tomorrow. The next day I arrived... I followed the situation in Ukraine because I worked here, I knew that there were elections, that there was a new government, but I thought that a group of advisers was being created - according to directions, and then I found out what to propose...

- ...the post of minister will be...

- Yes. Lado Gurgenidze, who was the Prime Minister of Georgia, recommended me - I was one of the candidates for this post, and received an invitation to come here from Boris Lozhkin, and the job interview took place at the Presidential Administration. It was a shock for me: I immediately arrived there from the airport, and the President, Prime Minister Yatsenyuk and Speaker Groysman were there.

- Just like that?

- That's it, yes.

- Whose will you be - Poroshenko or Yatsenyuk?

“You know, if there hadn’t been such conversations for the first six months, we could have done a lot more.” I explained to everyone that I was nobody’s business: I was invited by the president’s team and I believe that while I was working, I became part of it, but that did not mean at all that I was against my boss, the prime minister.

- Yatsenyuk thought that you were Poroshenko’s man...

-...well, I don’t think he thought so...

- ... and Poroshenko - are you Yatsenyuk’s man?

- What am I, like a spy, like Stirlitz? ( Laughs). No, that didn’t happen, although it immediately became clear that it would be hard for me. I didn’t know anyone, no one knew me, very few people knew each other, and if we had time these two years not to fight with committees, not to waste effort on anything, but to work normally, we would have done much more.

“Medical institutions in Ukraine have 40 million square meters”

— Was it easy for you to work with Arseniy Yatsenyuk?

- Did he hear you, listen to you?

— I repeat once again: at first it was difficult to convey my position, because a certain level of trust was needed, and then it became very easy, but it was too late ( laughs).

— Is it true that Yatsenyuk did not know (you explained to him) how many square meters of space do medical institutions in Ukraine have?

“And he didn’t know, and I don’t think anyone else knew: we thought it was.”

—Will you name this figure?

- 40 million square meters.

— At medical institutions in Ukraine?

- How much do you need?

- Well, probably one fourth or one fifth.

- From what it is?

— The number of beds shouldn’t be so large?

- These are not only beds - these are huge buildings, corridors in them, utility rooms, hectares of land - to plant potatoes on them, or what? All this was built when people were treated for tuberculosis with milk...

- ...and the new conditions...

- ...they demand something else, and if the average period of stay in a European hospital is 3-4 days, then in Ukraine it is 5-11 days.

- That's it, there's nothing more to talk about...

- This does not mean that the doctors here are bad, - on the contrary, the quality of training of the doctor himself is very high, it’s just that everyone writes that these 1,100 beds are full for 5-11 days, so that in this bad, idiotic system they can get money to maintain such a colossus , and as soon as this changes (it is changing now), you will very quickly feel: the European one has become better.

“If they offered me a million dollars a month, I would honestly take it.”

— I know that at one time all foreign ministers were assigned Ukrainian language teachers...

— (Laughs).

- Why were you afraid of the teacher?

“I wasn’t scared—even though I promised to study when I came, I really didn’t have time.” Well, it’s like election promises, I just started to understand everything very quickly - 90 percent, and by reading too.

— Is it true that when you saw a “terminovo” visa on documents from the president or prime minister, these papers were immediately destroyed?

— Yes, this funny story is connected with the fact that my working language is English, and in English there is a word terminate, which means “to destroy.” I thought these were secret documents to be read, memorized, and then burned...

-...eat...

- Well, yes ( laughs). Then I figured it out...

— Is there a lot of corruption in Ukrainian medicine?

— Yes, and it will be there; nothing can be done about it until the healthcare financing system changes.

— Is the Ukrainian pharmaceutical lobby a mafia?

— I don’t like this word, because all companies, all large manufacturers have a lobby. The Ukrainian pharmaceutical industry is very strong, and, of course, there are Al Capones, but I don’t consider them that much of a mafia. I went through all this in Georgia: the first companies that hospitals bought were either pharmaceutical or construction, because these two sectors had money. They told me: “How can a distributor of pharmaceuticals own a clinic?”, but what’s the problem? Even if it’s a poultry distributor, what difference does it make to me?

— Pharmacists and serious equipment suppliers, when you became minister, did they offer you kickbacks?

— No, but they asked to remove the idiotic regulations that hindered the development of this business. I believe that many regulations and norms do not protect, but only hinder the pharmaceutical business in Ukraine - we need to give it the opportunity to enter the European market, and there are a lot of strong manufacturers who can do this.

— One of the SBU generals told me that on the very first day after your appointment as Minister of Health of Ukraine, a certain person came to you and offered you a million dollars a month - was that so?

- No, but if they were offered, I would honestly take it ( smiling). I didn’t even know that I was worth a million dollars a month... And for what? To do what?

- To turn a blind eye to something...

- Oh, you know... If you can kill a person for 10 thousand bucks, then spending a million dollars on him is the wrong approach ( smiling).

- You didn’t come?

- No, but the story was different - I haven’t told it yet. I liked to walk to the Cabinet of Ministers, through the Mariinsky Park, and one day a man approached me with the following proposal: “We need to fire all the chief doctors, and then reassign them, and everyone will bring something” ( smiling).

- This is our way!

“I thought someone sent him.”

— Is it true that the chief doctors of the largest clinics in Kyiv earn 150 thousand dollars or more in cash a month?

- Well, I don’t know that, but if so, I wouldn’t be surprised. I repeat: I am for the legalization of this money, for the head doctors, if they have the opportunity to earn so much...

- ...would earn money legally...

- Well, yes. You know, no matter what anyone says, medicine is a business like any other, and in order for it to develop, money must be invested. I have seen a lot of people who want to, but cannot develop their own clinic.

- If we are talking about Georgia, in terms of money and financial capabilities it will probably be smaller than Ukraine...

- ...yes...

- ...and a good surgeon there can earn up to 20 thousand dollars a month. Well, how much does the head physician have there? 150-200 thousand a month?

- No, they earn less than surgeons. The head physician is not a doctor...

- ...and the administrator...

- ...manager, of course.

- Well, does the owner of the clinic have 200 thousand?

— The owners of the clinics are mostly large companies. I don’t know how much they earn, but I know that there is a company called EVEX, which created the first combination of insurance, network and pharmaceutical distributor in Georgia. They entered the London stock exchange and two years ago they were able to sell 30 percent of the company, if I’m not mistaken, for $125 million.

“With the support of the authorities and parliament, it will take three to five years to carry out the medical reform”

— By the way, is it true that in Georgia the Ministry of Health practically does not interfere in the work of hospitals?

- Absolute. First of all, where to climb?

- Private business...

— Well, yes, but the state is the largest customer of services, and whoever pays calls the tune, so I don’t know where this attitude comes from in Ukraine: they say, if there is private business in this area, private owners will strangle everyone. This is not true, since the state can control the situation with the help of financial levers.

— I’ve heard that up to 90 percent of medicines in Ukraine are counterfeit. Is this really true?

- No, I don’t believe in it.

- How much?

- Well, maybe 10-15...

- Total?

- Hmm, what are counterfeit drugs?

- They're completely disorganized...

“I don’t believe in such things, and now I’ll explain why.” Those that are expensive, no one will buy in the back room at the market, but the cheap ones... Well, how many of them will you make so that they bring you profit in this way? The shuttle business, when people buy suitcases in Poland and transport them to Ukraine, is thriving, but there are not so many fakes.

— You didn’t go to meetings of the Verkhovna Rada Committee on Medicine - why?

“At first I didn’t miss a single one, but then I stopped when they started discussing everything except the package of reforms. I started visiting again three months later, when the deputies returned to reforms again.

— Who slowed down the implementation of medical reform under your leadership?

“I didn’t expect that we would carry it out in a year or two, but we shook the system, and today’s minister continues what he started - that’s great.”

— How long will it take to reform Ukrainian medicine and make it like in the best countries of the world?

“With the support of the authorities and parliament, this will take three to five years - in three years you can already see a good result, and in five it will be a completely new system.

“It is impossible to make predictions regarding what Saakashvili concerns”

— Aren’t you offended that the law on reforming medicine, which you wrote, was passed in the Verkhovna Rada on behalf of Ulyana Suprun?

— Absolutely not, but, in my opinion, her name is not there either - the team of authors is completely different.

- However, you developed it?

“It’s not just me, there’s a large group of people, including the company that helped put all this together for free.” About 15 people probably sat and worked together, the law was ready in the Rada on July 4, 2015, but then an alternative one appeared, a second, a third, a fourth... No, it’s not offensive.

When he was accepted, I sent Suprun a text message and congratulated her on the historic day, and she replied: they say, our cause is just, we will win - something like that ( smiling). We correspond, communicate...

- And about. Do you like Minister of Health Suprun or not?

“I like the policy that continues under her, I see that the prime minister supports the reform - this is very important.

- But Mrs. Ulyana herself is in the right place?

- I think so.

- They just scold her a lot...

- Of course, I can both defend and criticize. There are some things I would have done differently, but overall, yes, she is in the right place, and so is the team: we have to wait.

— How do you feel about Mikheil Saakashvili?

- Very good. Without him, the changes that took place in Georgia were impossible, and if we talk about me, then it is his merit that I wanted to return to Georgia and work in the government. Now this is a completely different country, I go there often, and even under the new government (which, in principle, I did not vote for, although I really want it to do something good), all the institutions created under Saakashvili are functioning... .

— Is there no major rollback?

- It is very difficult to make such a rollback. Well, should we return the traffic police? This is impossible. To be honest, something is working by inertia, because the first four years of the new government... I won’t say that there was stagnation, but a stop, and now something needs to be changed, something needs to be completed...

— In your opinion, does Saakashvili have political prospects in Ukraine?

— (Smiling). Well, I watch the news about all his trials, and for me this is an absolutely absurd situation. I don’t know... As far as Saakashvili is concerned, it is impossible to make predictions. I am neither a skeptic nor an optimist... Someone thought that nothing would work out for him in Georgia, but it did... The fact that Ukraine is a big country plays against him, because there is a critical mass here It's hard to raise people...

- You can shake it up, but you can lift it...

- Well, that's what money is for ( smiling).

— You were the minister of health of two countries, you didn’t earn millions, but you know and understand a lot, but what are you doing now?

— Between these two positions, I also worked in the consulting business and returned there. Various companies hire me - both in Ukraine and abroad; now I have a large project on tuberculosis in Eastern Europe, Central Asia...

-Are you in demand?

— Yes, I also worked as a WHO consultant in Copenhagen, and there was also a big project there.

— After small ministerial salaries, did you finally manage to get rich?

- Not yet.

- But are you on your way to this?

— (Smiling). I try, of course, but I think that things are going well today.

— In order to end our conversation on a positive note, I’ll ask you, as a real Georgian, to tell an anecdote...

- Oh, that's a blow to the head with a baseball bat! ( Laughs).

- Please note: I’m not asking you to sing...

— This would be completely irrelevant, because I don’t sing... So far I only remembered a Soviet joke: probably because I watched 90 episodes of a documentary about the Soviet Union. So, the boy comes up to his father and asks: “Dad, who is Karl Marx?” - "Economist". - “How is our uncle Ramaz?” - “No, Uncle Ramaz is a senior economist”...

Recorded by Anna SHESTAK

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